01:16:48 <pabs> https://open-archive.org/ https://open-archive.org/jobs/tech-lead
03:00:21 <systwi> Is there any benefit to formatting XML data like this: https://transfer.archivete.am/zxhVE/example2.xml
03:00:26 <systwi> versus this?: https://transfer.archivete.am/tg7Y1/example1.xml
03:01:14 <systwi> Are there particular use cases where one is preferred over the other?
03:01:40 <systwi> or maybe even a hybrid of both?
03:02:00 <JAA> Uh, I mean, HTML is a hybrid.
03:03:13 <systwi> I meant, as in, are there any specific reasons why one might use the first example, the second example, or both together.
03:03:40 <Frogging101> https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/421831/temporary-policy-chatgpt-is-banned
03:03:41 <systwi> I've seen all three styles in use before.
03:03:45 <Frogging101> It's over. It's well and truly over.
03:03:54 <JAA> Not by itself, but you can give it semantic meaning. In HTML, subelements are tags and properties are attributes.
03:04:44 <JAA> You could have: <department name="IT"><employee name="John Doe" /><employee name="Jane Doe" /></department>
03:05:21 <JAA> That would be the HTML-like distinction between tags and attributes.
03:06:31 <JAA> If you want to model this container-elements relationship, it almost always only makes sense as nested tags.
03:07:32 <JAA> Representing properties of a container as a subtag then just makes it a bit messy, but there's no fundamental reason why you can't do it.
03:08:04 <JAA> Or perhaps this: <department><name>IT</name><employees><employee><name>John Doe</name></employee><employee><name>Jane Doe</name></employee></employees></department>
03:08:15 <JAA> Just comes down to personal preference, I think.
03:09:09 <systwi> Okay. So, if I'm understanding it correctly, both of your examples essentially represent the same data (in XML, but maybe also in HTML?), but with different formatting.
03:09:30 <systwi> No real difference aside from structure.
03:09:58 <JAA> Yeah, it's just a different structure for the same data.
03:10:13 <systwi> I see, I see.
03:10:22 <systwi> Thank you for the help. :-)
03:10:26 <JAA> And yeah, it could be valid HTML5 I think. IIRC, that allows you to define custom tags. I was thinking XML though.
03:10:59 <systwi> XML was mainly what I was inquiring about, so that's okay.
03:11:07 <JAA> Choose whatever you prefer, document it well, done. :-)
03:11:34 <JAA> That's how I view it, anyway.
03:11:53 <JAA> Frogging101: It really is over: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/zd8ljb/i_taught_the_chat_bot_an_alternative_syntax_for/
03:14:25 <systwi> A couple of other things, on the subject of XML structure/formatting (if you don't mind). Include or omit a trailing newline? CRLF vs. LF? (CR-only is for madlads :-P ) `encoding="UTF-8"` vs. `encoding="utf-8"`?
03:14:35 <systwi> Tabs vs. spaces?
03:15:06 <systwi> They're all, probably, dependent on the interpreter (how tolerant it is built).
03:16:29 <JAA> My personal preferences: include trailing newline, LF, UTF-8, tabs. Except for the capitalisation of UTF-8, same as any text/code-ish file I produce. :-)
03:16:36 <systwi> Maybe I'm looking too deep into storing data, intended for human reading/writing, that could simply be stored in a spreadsheet, hahaha. :-)
03:16:58 <JAA> If a parser can't handle these, it's broken.
03:17:51 <JAA> I'd use JSON for everything anyway these days.
03:19:01 <systwi> Nice, thanks. I used to use tabs for everything but switched to spaces a while ago. The rest of your preferences jive with mine, although my XML documents used capitalised `UTF-8`.
03:19:17 <JAA> Well, maybe not spreadsheets, but if it's going to be a small dataset and intended to be directly edited by humans, something like JSON or TOML would be the way to go.
03:21:03 <JAA> XML is a pain and very error-prone to edit manually.
03:21:04 <systwi> I can never make up my mind as to which format I want to use. CSV/TSV, TOML, YAML, XML, JSON, etc. I start one, then move to the next, then eventually to SQLite, then to PostgreSQL, and that's where I say, "wait a minute, a Postgres database for tracking which Pokémon use which nicknames in my game?" :-P
03:21:24 <JAA> Heh
03:22:07 <systwi> The tough thing is finding validators that aren't all JS dumpster fires.
03:22:22 <systwi> Notepad++ helps in some areas, but not all.
03:22:38 <systwi> or Firefox, for validating an XML for example.
03:23:22 <JAA> 'Validating' has many meanings.
03:23:30 <systwi> YAML sounded promising but I ran into that ^ issue re: offline validators.
03:24:04 <JAA> One is whether it follows the markup language spec. (Have fun there with CSV/TSV, for which no specs exist.)
03:24:15 <systwi> Ah, my meaning is, "does my syntax match what is expected of YAML/XML/... documents."
03:24:16 <JAA> But you might also want to validate that it matches your schema.
03:24:34 <systwi> Yeah, language spec, yeah.
03:25:26 <JAA> On my system, I have `xmlparse` for XML validation, `python3 -m json.tool` for JSON (good enough is good enough). Haven't had a need for validating the others locally so far.
03:27:55 <systwi> I've considered including a separate file.csv.ini file, detailing escape characters, whitespace collapsing, whether or not data types are taken into consideration, line terminators, etc.
03:28:08 <systwi> (for CSV/TSV files, of course)
03:28:40 <JAA> Eww
03:28:42 <JAA> :-)
03:29:16 <systwi> to put _some_ grasp on the no-spec madness.
03:29:20 <systwi> Hehehe
03:30:11 <JAA> By adding another underspecified, ancient format into the mix. lol
03:30:23 <systwi> :-)
03:30:56 <systwi> Maybe a JSON to describe the .ini file?
03:31:06 <systwi> file.csv.ini.json
03:31:18 <systwi> file.csv.ini.json.zst
03:31:31 <systwi> for when it gets too big. :-P
03:31:38 <JAA> I was just trying to think of another awful old format, but don't remember any others.
03:32:58 <systwi> MSP for old mspaint images?
03:33:07 <systwi> Not a markup document.
03:33:31 <JAA> Yeah, document the INI format in an image just to fuck with people, that sounds good to me. :-)
03:34:08 <JAA> And now I'm thinking of th MS Paint IDE again.
03:35:12 <JAA> Would probably be the appropriate dev environment for implementing this Lovecraftian nightmare though. :-)
03:35:33 <systwi> Compress the image using a proprietary compression algorithm, only uncompressable by hunting down a 1988 copy of the program (company went out of business around that time) and running it on old hardware.
03:36:10 <systwi> "Haha, Rickrolled!"
03:36:16 <systwi> :-P
03:37:05 <JAA> Funny, there was someone in #python the other day trying to reverse-engineer an ancient proprietary database format. Only thing they had was files in the format and a decompiled Java code (i.e. no sensible variable names etc.).
03:37:07 <systwi> An mspaint IDE might work, if you create a monochrome BMP with it and write in binary.
03:37:12 <systwi> :-P
03:37:44 <JAA> Although well, not quite 1988-ancient given it was Java. But same difference.
03:37:49 <systwi> Hah, interesting. #python on hackint?
03:38:09 <JAA> I was referring to this thing I found a few weeks ago and linked here at the time: https://ms-paint-i.de/
03:38:14 <JAA> No, on Libera.
03:43:11 <systwi> Hah, that's so weird, but cool!
03:43:55 <systwi> I saw a video of somebody running Doom inside of an unmodified notepad.exe.
03:44:08 <systwi> *unmodified binary
03:46:33 <systwi> https://yewtu.be/watch?v=a3VoEyaqMoc
03:48:07 <JAA> Nice
03:48:31 <JAA> My favourite's still the pregnancy test, and I'm not sure that'll get beaten.
03:51:07 <systwi> Get those kids started on Doom early. :-P
03:51:26 <JAA> :-)
03:51:28 <systwi> That's pretty cool, too. Forgot about that one.
04:00:33 <systwi> Not Doom, but also equally...bizarre: https://github.com/smealum/butthax
04:12:22 <JAA> Heh, didn't see that one before, but there was one about a 'smart vibrator' as well.
04:12:35 <JAA> Also: https://github.com/smealum/butthax/issues/2
04:18:38 <systwi> Hah! Didn't see that issue thread before.