-
nulldata
.
-
nulldata
-
pabs
immibis: there are several mirrors for sourceforge file releases, they redirect requests to those mirrors
-
pabs
immibis: rolling hashes like modern backup systems like restic/borg do might be good for dealing with the redundancy stuff
-
arkiver
nicolas17: you're trying to save on space archiving apple releases?
-
arkiver
are you storing these at IA? what are you doing to save storage?
-
arkiver
wondering because if it's stored at IA, maybe in this case (on this specifically) one doesn't have to save on space
-
immibis
pabs: good idea but it's not that simple since compression such as .gz has a cascading effect: one different uncompressed bit changes the rest of the file
-
JAA
Or even the same input might result in different compression output.
-
immibis
i did some experiments like this and compressed ~400GB of minecraft mod-packs (a hopefully complete set from FTB) down to ~4GB. But you want to get the original files back at the end, especially if they are signed, and this means writing a reversible decompressor which compresses the file the same way it was compressed before.
-
immibis
original bit-for-bit identical files
-
that_lurker
-
that_lurker
"Artikel 5 e.V. is now calling for a general assembly on Sep 21st 2024. We are looking for new board members (who take over and organize a new registered address and keep running exits) or discuss ALL alternative options.
-
that_lurker
These options include "just stop running exits" or even the most drastic step of liquidating the entire organization and distribution of the remaining budget to other German organizations (that would have to qualify under our non-profit by-laws)."
-
magmaus3
"Recent Tor Exit Node Operator Raids and Legal Harassment in Germany" ← shouldn't the tor exit operators be counted as not responsible for the traffic? (like ISPs and etc)
-
immibis
yes but most law enforcement are violent criminals, especially in germany
-
magmaus3
that's like everywhere
-
immibis
it's especially in germany
-
immibis
denazification never happened
-
JAA
This discussion stops now.
-
magmaus3
sure
-
immibis
IMO the biggest risk isn't that they'll raid your tor node, since that will be cleared by the court - it's that they could discover something else, illegal or not, when they go to raid your tor node.
-
magmaus3
yeah
-
immibis
why is it illegal to talk about legal threats to tor nodes here?
-
magmaus3
that was for a diff reason
-
immibis
it should be in -ot?
-
magmaus3
maybe
-
magmaus3
i think the issue was with the political discussion
-
JAA
Correct
-
immibis
tor node raids are politics
-
JAA
I've archived the public web stuff of Artikel 5 e.V. that I could find with AB.
-
magmaus3
cool :3
-
immibis
Artikel 5 e.V. is also a highly political organization
-
JAA
Which is completely irrelevant for this channel.
-
immibis
it seems A5eV would be well served by renting a clubhouse so that the business premises do not default to being at the chairman's home.
-
arkiver
immibis: it's the "denazification never happened" stuff. that comment is not welcome here
-
arkiver
that has been brought up before.
-
arkiver
it's part of labeling entire perceived "groups" of people as x, where x may be some word like "nazi"/"communist"/"fascist"/etc.
-
arkiver
also when it is not meant literally, but rather in some symbolical way, it's not something Archive Team is the right place for.
-
kpcyrd
immibis: it looks like they do have an office location, there are multiple companies registered at that same address (including ImmobilienScout24)
-
kpcyrd
but they can still figure out home addresses of people involved in an e.V. (and apparently they did)
-
immibis
well the search warrant says business premises so whoever executed it belongs in prison for burglary then
-
immibis
a search warrant for location X doesn't give you a pass to burglarize location Y
-
kpcyrd
*the search warrant published by Artikel 5 e.V.
-
kpcyrd
there may be more
-
kpcyrd
-
kpcyrd
idk, this is all very confusing
-
kpcyrd
on their website they write "the club doesn't have any dedicated space" and that's why their homes got searched, but they very clearly do have a dedicated space at Hatzper Str. 172B
-
kpcyrd
make it make sense
-
kpcyrd
one of the chairman runs a company at that address, so maybe the e.V. was using a shared space
-
arkiver
immibis: i'm pinging again though on what i wrote (and will leave it at that) - this has now happened a few times, i believe you have seen (or maybe not? let me know if not) the longer message i posted back then on this
-
immibis
i gather you want to ban me cause of what i said about search warrants. Fine. I'll stop all containers I may be running, delete their data without uploading it and leave IRC for good.
-
immibis
AT IRC, that is
-
rewby
Ot'
-
rewby
It's not about the warrants.
-
rewby
It's about the nazi comments.
-
immibis
you already wrote about me saying denazification never happened
-
arkiver
that is about symbolical nazi remarks - not search warrants
-
arkiver
i not have as a goal to ban you - i an hoping you would somewhat understand what i wrote. again, it's not about search warrant discussion, it's about symbolically labeling groups as "nazi"/"fascists"/etc.
-
arkiver
for completeness, i will post the message i wrote some time ago about this
transfer.archivete.am/inline/NzLSU/message.txt
-
arkiver
(note the message contains some references to the context at the time, but i believe it is still clear and i stand behind it)
-
kpcyrd
"especially now with everything going on" is a very timeless thing to say
-
arkiver
-
kpcyrd
"As a consequence, I am personally no longer willing to provide my personal address&office-space as registered address for our non-profit/NGO[...]" written by the chairman who has a company at that address
-
kpcyrd
-
immibis
denazification is not identifying specific people as nazis, it is the removal of nazi ideology from general perception in the entire country of germany
-
kpcyrd
so it seems the theory of "the e.V. only had a postbox at that address" tracks
-
immibis
i see that you want no politics not directly related to archive team, so the whole exit node raiding thing is not allowed, except for the statement that it happened and therefore this e.V.'s site could be at risk.
-
nicolas17
arkiver: I know of two people with a giant NAS at home with apple releases (including many that apple already deleted from their servers)
-
nicolas17
and there's so much redundant data...
-
nicolas17
and the files keep getting bigger and more numerous
theapplewiki.com/wiki/Beta_Firmware/iPhone/17.x
-
arkiver
nicolas17: are we actively archiving those apple CDN URLs into the wayback machine?
-
arkiver
please feel free to at least with ArchiveBot (CC JAA )
-
corentin
arkiver: I grabbed them all
-
arkiver
corentin: as in, is that happening periodically?
-
corentin
arkiver: no no sorry, I mean I grabbed the ones in this URLs shared. There must be something "bigger" to do though
-
arkiver
-
arkiver
nicolas17: were you archiving those on the long term?
-
arkiver
what was that TLD again that got a warning?
-
arkiver
for hosting too much spam or pishing addresses or something
-
monoxane
probably one of the freenom ones
-
monoxane
.tk et al
-
arkiver
hmm yeah
-
arkiver
maybe
-
corentin
arkiver: yes, sorry I should have been more clear!
-
arkiver
alright!
-
arkiver
well so to be clear, feel free to continue archiving this with ArchiveBot, it is well worth the size i think
-
nicolas17
corentin: note the wiki may have duplicates (XS and XS Max use the same files but have separate tables on the wiki)
-
nicolas17
if you just grabbed the URLs from the wiki and fed it to AB, I'm not sure if AB dedups
-
nicolas17
arkiver: I don't have the disk space to archive this long term myself :P but I'm helping people who do
-
nicolas17
and yeah I was planning on discussing how to archive this properly
-
myself
how much space we talkin'?
-
nicolas17
an admin of theapplewiki started feeding some URLs to savepagenow and I told him that was probably not the best way
-
arkiver
nicolas17: you can see feed lists into ArchiveBot!
-
arkiver
IA definitely has the space for this
-
arkiver
individual items on IA _next to that_ are also welcome, i can create a collection for you and others
-
nicolas17
archive.org/details/apple-ipsws already done that for some files that were already deleted from Apple
-
arkiver
yeah feel free to put everything in that collection and in ArchiveBot!
-
arkiver
if any help is needed, don't hesitate to ping me :)
-
nicolas17
hmmmm I imported info from appledb into a SQLite database, and "select sum(file_size) from sourcefile where type='ipsw'" returns 48TB, which seems low, I wonder if my import was excluding something important... I last looked into it in June or so
-
arkiver
nicolas17: i see on an item like
archive.org/details/xcode-16.1-beta1 you included a `source` metadata field, is it possible to include that for ipsw items as well?
-
nicolas17
with the original URL? yes
-
arkiver
yeah!
-
nicolas17
though there's some where the source will be "someone sent it to me and it seemed to be the right file but it has been gone from apple-cdn for 2 years now"
-
arkiver
nicolas17: let's add a note to that, but feel free to include at your discretion
-
arkiver
what does IPSW stand for? is the official name iPSW ? i can't actually easily find this info online...
-
nicolas17
afaik it was originally iPod Software Update, then iPhone Software Update with a different format
-
JAA
nicolas17: AB only dedupes identical URLs.
-
nicolas17
nowadays even macOS uses iPhone-like IPSW files
-
nicolas17
JAA: oh that's fine for this case
-
JAA
And even then, not on redirects.
-
JAA
It does no content dedupe at all.
-
nicolas17
the wiki page has some URLs multiple times and I didn't know if corentin had dedup'd them, if AB dedups them that's enough
-
JAA
Ah
-
JAA
Last time we spoke about this, I think you said there were like 4 different URLs for each file.
-
nicolas17
for macOS InstallAssistant.pkg files, there's often 2 different URLs for each
-
nicolas17
someone uploaded WARCs of them as items to archive.org containing 4 copies, because they archived those two URLs, each on both http+https, with no content dedup :/
-
JAA
Ah right, that's the one you mentioned, yeah.
-
nicolas17
afaik WBM doesn't care about http+https so we would only need to archive 2 anyway
-
JAA
Correct, the WBM doesn't care about the scheme in general.
-
arkiver
nicolas17: so would you say the official name nowadays is just IPSW? even apple or wikipedia doesn't clearly mention anything else
-
arkiver
i guess it has so many meanings now, that it's just IPSW
-
nicolas17
arkiver: I think macOS Finder shows .ipsw files as "Apple software update" nowadays :P
-
arkiver
that is annoying
-
nicolas17
Apple has many misnomers due to scope growth tbh
-
nicolas17
the sharingd daemon used to deal with AirDrop (sharing files wirelessly), now it handles most of the Continuity features many of which have nothing to do with sharing
-
nicolas17
mail on mac: "Mail.app"; mail on iPhone: "MobileMail.app"; many MobileSomething names refer to iOS... then some features like MobileAssets get ported to macOS and nothing makes sense anymore
-
masterx244|m
too bad that sometime device manufacturers DMCA those archives off the net even though others are glad that those archives exist
-
masterx244|m
(got a strike due to that crap already, luckily the IA version was just a secondary location, my personal copy where the state is kept of what i got already is not visible on the open web for obvious reasons)
-
nicolas17
betas used to be restricted to members of the developer program
-
nicolas17
later only beta 1 was restricted that way
-
nicolas17
last year I got a DMCA takedown not for re-hosting the 17.0b1 ipsws, but for *tweeting a link* to someone else's website that re-hosted them
-
nicolas17
the lawyers later withdrew the claim but I had already deleted the tweet myself by then *shrug*
-
masterx244|m
mine was for the archival of the sena (motorcycle intercom) firmware files. Might have gotten a few files that they didnt want out (their update server is a bit of a leaky pipe, got a dumb monitoring of a few files into a git and that sometimes leaks stuff before release)
-
arkiver
masterx244|m: yes :/
-
masterx244|m
got a few 0.X.X versions that way, too
-
arkiver
i do advise to keep your own copies of data very important, next to storing on IA, but in case of very large amounts of data that may not be practical
-
masterx244|m
luckily its pretty small, 20GB or so and for coldstorage a 7zip solid compression gets it down to 300MB or so due to quite a few cross-file-redundancies
-
nicolas17
I can't avoid feeling bad about duplication
-
masterx244|m
and yeah, got my local copy still since i have some automatic crawling, the IA copy was generated by that tooling, too with some CSV upload magic
-
masterx244|m
sometimes they had different language versions where the code part was identical. or different version of code but the audio snippets for the menu were the same
-
nicolas17
not like "me and Siguza and qwerty and archive.org having the same file", that's good for redundancy
-
nicolas17
but about "archive.org having the same file 3 times in separate captures/items"
-
nicolas17
waaaasteful >_<
-
nicolas17
"the file is only 10GB it's no big deal" yeah but wasteful >_<
-
arkiver
nicolas17: if it makes 50 TB go times 4, that is a big problem
-
arkiver
URL agnostic deduplication would help
-
masterx244|m
yeah, splitting the stuff into "headers" and payload and if a payload segment is == with another one just storing a pointer would be enough
-
arkiver
i believe AB deduplicates (?)
-
arkiver
Wget-AT can be run with the 4 URLs as input and URL agnostic deduplication turned on and it will handle it
-
JAA
AB does not dedupe.
-
arkiver
ah
-
arkiver
JAA: i do remember some messages about that streaming over archivebot.com in the past about duplicate content - was it a feature in the past?
-
JAA
arkiver: There is a dupe detection, but that's for stopping recursion on identical responses. It doesn't do anything about the WARC writing. It's also been broken for, uh, over 8 years, before I arrived here.
-
arkiver
ah
-
arkiver
thanks for clearing that up
-
chains
How do I know when a blog has been archived by frogger?
-
rewby
I believe the bot has dedupe so you can probably just put it in and let the bot deal. That said, the only good way is to check if the Wayback machine contains the blog
-
nicolas17
masterx244|m: the WARC format supports that kind of deduplication (storing the request and response headers, and only a pointer to the previous response body), but archivebot doesn't use it
-
chains
rewby, gotcha thanks
-
nicolas17
corentin: what did you do with theapplewiki? archivebot? I don't see the job running and I doubt it finished
-
corentin
nicolas17: no I did it myself
-
nicolas17
what does that mean
-
nicolas17
savepagenow?
-
nicolas17
or downloaded to your own disk? :P
-
h2ibot
Nulldata edited Deathwatch (+270, /* 2024 */ Added SteamRep (thanks PredatorIWD2)):
wiki.archiveteam.org/?diff=53445&oldid=53444
-
corentin
I work at the Internet Archive, I write and maintain crawlers & crawls, I captured it with Zeno and I'll upload it at some point (when the upload process kicks off)
-
rewby
Neat, I've not checked up on how zeno's been coming along
-
nulldata
corentin++
-
eggdrop
[karma] 'corentin' now has 1 karma!
-
rewby
I remember trying to get heritrix to do stuff a few years ago and that was pain and suffering
-
rewby
Mostly because java
-
corentin
It is
-
corentin
It's why I wrote Zeno hahaha
-
rewby
Very understandable
-
rewby
Is there any docs on zeno or just "look at the code and figure it out?
-
corentin
We've had some huge work done on it recently to try and address long standing stability issues, because for a couple of years I was the only dev on it and so I was mostly using it for "experimental" crawls. Note: the WARC writing itself is very well tested and stable, I'm just talking about the crawling part. Anyway, a lot of work from me and a
-
corentin
couple of colleagues on it recently to get it way more stable, and more expendable / solid for the future features we'll add.
-
corentin
Sadly for now, no documentation. :) But --help will help you. ./Zeno get url
google.com, ./Zeno get list list.txt... and -h for all the options
-
rewby
Neat. I might have a go at it Later TM and see how it works
-
corentin
I hope it will, if you see any weird behavior, any bug, please open an issue
-
masterx244|m
same. might even be useful for grabs for the own sanity. currently using grab-site for those sanity grabs
-
rewby
Just from looking at the readme, is crawl hq that couch db thing I recall from eons ago?
-
corentin
Not at all, Crawl HQ is an internal queuing system. Internal as in IA internal.
-
corentin
At some point I'll write in the README that even if Zeno is fully OSS, it still has very IA-specific features sometimes, optional of course
-
rewby
Yeah makes sense
-
rewby
ooo it has an api
-
rewby
Interesting
-
corentin
It's also opinionated, there are choices that are made so that it fits our usage more than anything else
-
rewby
That's very fair
-
corentin
Well.. the API is mostly reading, nothing more yet
-
rewby
Ah
-
corentin
But yeah of course I thought about like, adding URLs via the API etc
-
corentin
so many possibilities
-
rewby
Is there a spec for crawlhq's api somewhere? Might be interesting to do an alt implementation of that to coordinate a small set of zeno instances.
-
corentin
any PR is welcome btw, there is so much to do
-
corentin
-
corentin
It's not an API doc per say
-
corentin
but it should be enough for a smart man to understand the endpoints
-
rewby
Oh cool it supports headless browsers
-
rewby
(I'm having a read through your cmd/ directory)
-
corentin
Well... no, it's very experimental. There is actually a PR opened for that. (idk why the --headless option made it to the --help)
-
corentin
Goal with that PR is to bring the capability of doing mixed crawls
-
corentin
where headless is only used on some domains
-
corentin
it's like 80% done
-
corentin
I'll get back to it at some point haha
-
corentin
about HQ, there is actually someone that wrote his own HQ compliant system that use like MongoDB or whatever, just to interact with Zeno haha
-
JAA
How do you deal with TLS in the headless browser case? Since MITM proxying is required to get a correct WARC capture, and I've heard that TLS config on headless browsers is a mild pain.
-
corentin
it's not open source hto I think
-
arkiver
can we move this to #archiveteam-dev or #archiveteam-ot ?
-
nicolas17
corentin: what's the state of deduplication in zeno? :P
-
corentin
I'll answer you both in ot or dev
-
JAA
-dev sounds fine.
-
rewby
arkiver: Sorry <3
-
arkiver
no worries, thanks :)
-
nicolas17
-
nicolas17
nobody expects archiveteam scale :D
-
rewby
lol
-
that_lurker
you should share the telegram numbers :-P
-
rewby
Or reddit or #//
-
rewby
Enjoy me some 8PiB of urls
-
IDK
-
IDK
Hi, the deadline would be sept 12
-
IDK
-
arkiver
oof
-
arkiver
today?
-
arkiver
or no tomorrow, but yeah
-
nicolas17
how do we even find affected sites?
-
nulldata
Some discussion on this in #archivebot too
-
nulldata
"02:46 PM <@JAA> nyuuzyou shared a list of 167 presumably Russian Wix sites earlier. Needs a bit of cleanup. I was going to run it as !a <, but maybe separate jobs are better, not sure."
-
IDK
nicolas17: Дизайн этого сайта создан в конструкторе site:*.wixsite.com
-
pokechu22
I'm running
transfer.archivete.am/inline/JRZXk/wixsite.com_russian_sites.txt which was obtained that way (though I also did a -site:wixsite.com search, which found a few results), apart from
transfer.archivete.am/inline/55K2g/wix.txt which was sent by someone else and I don't know how they generated it
-
pokechu22
Finding more sites would be difficult because wix free sites are deliberately annoying and while
woodland64.wixsite.com/mysite works,
woodland64.wixsite.com and
woodland64.wixsite.com/sitemap.xml are 404s
-
rewby
JAA: Slight warning, GamersNexus just posted a news video calling for "datahoarders to pull down some of that" (anandtech) so we may see a bunch of people joining and asking.
-
JAA
nicolas17: :-)
-
JAA
rewby: Ack. No specific mention of us?
-
rewby
No, but you know how this goes
-
JAA
Yeah
-
rewby
How is that AB job doing anyway?
-
JAA
Put it in front in the #archiveteam topic, maybe it'll help.
-
rewby
I don't see it on the dashboard but wiki says in progress
-
rewby
I do see a forum job going
-
JAA
The main site job finished, the forums are still going.
-
rewby
I'll update the wiki
-
JAA
No idea whether it's complete or there are complications.
-
rewby
Ah
-
rewby
We should probably check that first then
-
rewby
JAA: How do we check if the job was successful?
-
JAA
Browsing in the WBM, I guess, but not sure it's there yet. IA's upload processing is slow.
-
JAA
Or poking around on the site to find things that are problematic with JS disabled etc.
-
that_lurker
someone could maybe contact GamersNexus and let them know
-
rewby
Lemme see if we uploaded that WARC yet
-
JAA
The WARCs are all uploaded.
-
JAA
I think the last item(s) might still be deriving.
-
JAA
And then there's another slight delay between derives and it showing up in the WBM, at least sometimes.
-
rewby
It's starting to show up on wbm
-
JAA
No surprises there, the first WARCs were uploaded over a week ago.
-
rewby
The IA's search is just useless as per usual
-
JAA
-
JAA
Images (that were linked rather than embedded) were run in a separate job.
-
JAA
-
JAA
That's definitely not in the WBM yet.
-
rewby
Did we ever reenable auto upload?
-
rewby
If not, we should
-
nicolas17
okay...
-
JAA
(Not yet)
-
nicolas17
transfer.archivete.am/inline/pXoXh/swcdn.apple.com-missing.txt these files still exist on Apple's CDN, and are not on WBM; Safari is ~180MB, BridgeOS is ~500MB, InstallAssistant is ~12GB
-
nicolas17
I assume this is a bad time to AB due to the upload problems
-
nulldata
(and emergency Russian Wix jobs)
-
nicolas17
I'm now looking at those that *are* on WBM to see whether they are actually failed captures
-
arkiver
nicolas17: the upload problems still exist?
-
nicolas17
idk, #archivebot topic says so
-
rewby
It'll be fine tomorrow or so
-
nulldata
AB uploads are still being done by JAA, our mechanical turk, at the moment
-
nulldata
01:49 PM <@eggdrop> <@JAA> Normal operations wrt uploads should probably resume either tonight or tomorrow anyway.
-
rewby
Yes.
-
rewby
We've nearly cleared out 6T of backlog on atr3 so we have the iops again for AB
-
nicolas17
uhh ok I have an urgent one
-
nicolas17
swcdn.apple.com/content/downloads/0…fjk7i5uwq1s8tz/InstallAssistant.pkg this URL works intermittently depending on which CDN server I hit, I guess it was deleted from their origin
-
nicolas17
not sure how to deal with that; AB it, and if it gets 403, try again?
-
pokechu22
Yeah, that'll probably work
-
nicolas17
(I probably have the file content but that won't get us a WARC)
-
JAA
nicolas17: I'm grabbing it with grab-site, working from there.
-
nicolas17
I guess there's also a chance that the cdn cache has a partial file, and then it will die halfway
-
JAA
Nope, download just finished without issues.
-
JAA
12407486945 bytes
-
nicolas17
repeatedly trying locally, in between a lot of 403s, I got some 200s that failed after ~15MB
-
masterx244|m
<nicolas17> "nobody expects archiveteam scale..." <- when AT goes to eleven its really big hoses for pumping out the data....
-
masterx244|m
(and the fun starts once the banhammers are flying and get dodged)
-
JAA
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 13:06:10 GMT
-
JAA
Interesting
-
JAA
I guess they cache that header, too.
-
nicolas17
lol
-
nicolas17
isn't that against spec?
-
rewby
masterx244|m: I remember the time we accidentally'd hetzner cloud's backbone
-
JAA
nicolas17: I'm actually not sure. It's the 'date and time at which the message was originated' per RFC 9110. It then references RFC 5322 about 'Internet Message Format (IMF)', whatever that is. Sounds email-like. And that specifically mentions:
-
JAA
> it is specifically not intended to convey the time that the message is actually transported, but rather the time at which the human or other creator of the message has put the message into its final form, ready for transport.
-
JAA
But is that even the HTTP response's final form if the CDN then updates the Age header and a bunch of other things?
-
JAA
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-
steering
it doesn't matter, it's over 9000
-
JAA
:-)
-
steering
also yeah it's the email Date header that it's referencing.
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steering
I would say that it should be the time of the original response, since that's the "message"; both email and HTTP assume the headers will have been modified along the way (i.e. adding Received, Return-Path)
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JAA
TIL the official name of an email.
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JAA
Hmm, yeah, that makes sense.
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nicolas17
HTTP's analogies to MIME/email was wrong all along
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steering
of course there could be another argument that the spec is saying it should be the same as Last-Modified or perhaps file-birthtime :P
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steering
nicolas17: indeed
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JAA
And then WARC was heavily based on HTTP including all its flaws in the old RFC.
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steering
I wonder how many caches do it which way
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nicolas17
JAA: imagine chunked encoding at the WARC-record level /o\
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JAA
nicolas17: You mean segmented records?
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JAA
Although at least they're not terminated by an empty record.
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nicolas17
I regret my comment
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JAA
Also I'm not sure any software out there properly supports them.
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JAA
But yes, it is a thing. D:
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JAA
There are some nice use cases, actually. Like splitting up huge responses into multiple WARCs. Or streaming to WARC without first buffering the full response.
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JAA
It's just that nobody seems to support reading such data, so it's not used on writing either.
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klg
aiui Last-modified is about the body while Date is about generation of the message itself regardless of what transformations proxy/cache might further apply; e.g. at a different date there might be a different set of representations available at the origin and so the content negotiation might play out differently, last-modified value of any particular representation is independent of that
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klg
after all other kinds of Internet messages would also get Received header prepended or their Path header updated etc
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nicolas17
I always thought Date was simply the current time of the server, used to compensate for clock skew when looking at Last-Modified and Expires and such
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klg
and so did the authors of httpsdate and probably most people in general
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steering
the question is how that works with caches (and reverse proxies in general) :)
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steering
the cache might not have the same clock skew as the origin after all